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May. 16 2010 - 8:52 am | 11,424 views | 0 recommendations | 30 comments

New Video Game Lets Players Hogtie and Murder Nuns

Rockstar Games has found a way to top itself yet again.

The notorious creators of Grand Theft Auto, which spawned the infamous stripper trick and the Hot Coffee mod, have a new game: Red Dead Redemption.

Like any sandbox-style game, it’s full of wide-open space where players can spontaneously live out their whims of heroism or villainy. The video below is a powerful demonstration of the later.

UPDATE: Sadly, mere hours after this essay went online, publisher Take 2 Games had YouTube pull an included video depicting a nun being hogtied, kidnapped to the desert and ground into bloody chunks under the wheels of a train. You’ll just have to trust me for the moment: Red Dead Redemption lets players do this. I’m sure more clips will spring up very soon as the game releases everywhere on Tuesday. As a substitute, I’ve embedded a trailer depicting many of the game’s female protagonists. Examples of the nun characters can be seen at the beginning and very briefly at the 00:45 mark.

(Another update: Now Live Leak has the nun-slaying video. Check it out, if you must.)

When players successfully kill another character in this way, it unlocks the “Dastardly” achievement for plus five gamerscore. While I’m not surprised they let outlaw gangsters throw hapless victims in front of trains (this is a western, after all), I am a little surprised they still give a score bonus after mercilessly killing a woman of the cloth.

GTA IV allows players to pick up a health boost by purchasing the services of a prostitute, then get their money back by murdering her … But, the nun is worse, I’ve got to admit.

Being a gamer (and jaded, at that), I’m kinda torn between declaring this funny or sad. I’m all for allowing this level of freedom in a virtual world, but with that freedom it becomes entirely up to the player as to whether something this horrid happens in their game. To my knowledge, there’s no actual mission to murder nuns (although Rockstar once assigned players to indiscriminately slaughter Haitians) — this is just a few twisted dudes inventing their own fun.

Sadly, that’s not what the mainstream press is going to latch onto if Red Dead Redemption becomes the most-talked about New Thing.

There’s plenty of design sensibility in the game development industry to legitimately prevent a player from going so far. The developers of Fable and Fable II, though they allowed players to become evil and lure villagers out of their homes into the dark temple to be sacrificed, blocked gamers from becoming a sort-of pied piper character, leading a caravan of unsuspecting children out of a city to their slaughter.

A similar type of roadblock was possible here — maybe the main character has a point of empathy for nuns or operates on his own twisted sense of honor, perhaps leading the avatar to simply object to doing something so corrupt.

The fact that he does not reveals Rockstar’s allowance for wholesale nun murder to be a very intentional decision. This also likely means that Red Dead Redemption offers an unprecedented level of freedom, hence the promise of nearly limitless play styles for creative gamers.

For the developers, this ethos of giving gamers the reigns will inevitability touch off massive sales. For the media (that’s me), it offers a nice piece of controversy to stick in a headline, ideally followed up by a rational discussion of this type of thing. Even without that discussion, Rockstar has effectively birthed a self-perpetuating publicity typhoon where everyone can benefit — politicians included.

Thank God it’s no longer 1998 and this isn’t The Matrix, or the whole entertainment industry might start wearing spurs and treating forced nun bondage like the new black.

Personally, I can’t wait for the totally skewed “Mass Effect treatment” by Fox News, where they’ll likely declare that Rockstar has made a game which encourages children to molest the clergy. Now that will be a priceless piece of footage.

Red Dead Redemption is rated “Mature”, for gamers 17 and up. If The New York Times is right (they called it a “tour de force”), it looks to be one of the year’s biggest games. Expect Rockstar’s latest opus to go on sale across North America for PS3 and Xbox 360 later this week.


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  1. collapse expand

    Oh, this will be lovely fodder for useless politicians trying to garner votes with something they haven’t a clue about.

    Never mind movies like Hostel which graphically portray some of the most disgusting ways to mutilate a human body. Movies aren’t “interactive” so they are art and could never inspire anyone to do anything bad. Right.

    I spent almost five years managing a GameStop here in Cincinnati and I can tell you without a doubt that it is the parents who totally disregard the “M” rating on games and not the retailers. Even after I would explain in fairly graphic detail the levels of violence, sex and profanity in a game parents would still buy it for their eight year old.

    Sadly, there isn’t a single politician with the courage to go after this very real reason for “M” rated games being played by kids. They would rather go after the insidious evil retailers who are worse than pornographers, tobacco companies and, quite possibly, the Fuhrer himself.

    I applaud Rockstar for continually pushing the envelope for adult gamers. Red Dead Redemption is quite obviously made for adults and is not for kids. It is clearly labeled and marketed as such. But that won’t stop ignorant politicians, like Leland Yee from California, from claiming that this game will destroy the lives of many children.

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    I’m not sure how “rational” a discussion you can have. Of course, I’m the tedious, whiny scold who — sue me — has never played a video game and has no desire to. I know they’re enjoyed by millions.

    But whether or not a child is allowed to virtually shoot or maim or crush a woman, or “only” adults get to enjoy that specific amusement, is not the issue. It’s sick shit. I wrote about the shooting of prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto in my book about women and guns.

    The message here is that women are trash, there for your amusement and mutilation and murder — or not. What part of this is rational? It’s lizard brain + enormous profit. Who could possibly resist?

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      That’s a fairly narrow view. You can be just as vile and violent to men in Rockstar games as you can to women. It’s equal opportunity violence.

      As Americans we love our violence. Whether it’s movies, TV, games or the nightly news violence is as much a part of American culture as apple pie and baseball.

      It is absolutely possible to have a rational discussion on video games. I do it all the time with gamer and non-gamer friends alike. What isn’t possible is to have a rational discussion with people who are only focused on one or two optional actions in a game.

      Put it this way: by applying this same politically correct and ignorant logic to the Bible I can clearly state that the Bible is not for children. It contains more violence, sex, degradation and evil than any video game ever has. It can also be backed up with history that the Bible has caused more violence, torture, rape and mutilation than any form of human entertainment ever has. Personally, I find the Bible to be one of the most vile books ever written by man. Yet, it contains some of the greatest moral parables in human history (as does every other religion).

      It’s all about what you want to focus on. Video games of every genre have brought joy and amazing memories to millions over the last several decades. Gamers tend to be some of the nicest people you will ever meet. What politicians and the uniformed focus on is the minor amount of sex and violence in games. For every Red Dead Redemption or GTA there are dozens of games with little to no graphic violence. There are events such as the Penny Arcade Expo (the creators of which were in Time’s Top 100 this year) which brings together thousands of gamers for an amazing weekend every year. The PA guys are also the ones who started the Child’s Play charity which has raised millions of dollars for children’s hospitals around the country. Do you hear about actions like this from the pundits and politicians? Nope. All they focus on is the virtual violence that is a small portion of the larger video game world.

      In response to another comment. See in context »
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      I don’t disagree. It is sick shit and completely outrageous, or I wouldn’t have blogged it.

      But when I say there’s a “rational” discussion to be had, I mean that it’s a topic not fairly treated unless those contributing can grasp the medium’s ever-changing nature.

      Not all games follow a Point-A to Point-B narrative. Development has become so sophisticated that completely unique virtual worlds are springing up, each offering players an increasing number of choices with the idea being the true achievement of “emergent” play, where developers aren’t leading the fun but merely provide the technology that allows players to create it.

      Because of this philosophy, a technological libertarianism if you will, we see rise of the Bad insanity. Game creators who push the boundaries of emergent play are forced to account for their own players’ evil nature. In this respect, I cannot fault some developers for cultivating the darkness much as the light.

      As another commenter noted, the video above could very well have depicted any of the game’s civilian inhabitants. It just happened to be a nun because the players just happened to be rather depraved.

      It’s a question of choice. The developers didn’t go and make a pack of nuns and then program routines for players to follow in order to kill them. They created entire cities, each with a diverse array inhabitants, then turned the player loose. This can lead some to go a little crazy with imaginary power.

      Thankfully, all of gaming is just a lucid fantasy of dancing electrons and colored squares that even a child can separate from reality. That’s why I don’t worry about this sort of mania bleeding over into my neighborhood’s streets. It’s just play, be it moral heroism or shocking villainy, and the participants know that.

      Today’s relatively limited consumer technology makes it easy to attack Rockstar for a fantasy product that permits participants to hogtie and murder a nun if they wish, but it won’t always be this way. You’ll find such direct assaults on game creators much more difficult in the next 10 years, as the scope of potential play widens from a guided tunnel to an infinite horizon.

      Once that happens, Us media types and varied politicos of all stripes will have to cope with a growing sort-of role reversal: learning to hate the player, not the game.

      In response to another comment. See in context »
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      I’m buying the game. You have the option to do that to anybody. It’s not like you can only kill nuns or that nuns will have some magic shield or something. Everyone is fair game. Another thing that needs to be mentioned is in the game if you murder innocent people you become a outlaw. Wanted by the sheriff and the long arm of the law. Back then they’d hang or just shoot you on the spot. Justice was stiff. In the game you also have the option to become a bounty hunter and work with the lawmen to catch varmint.

      In response to another comment. See in context »
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      First off, you’ve never played a video game and have no desire to. Hey, I’m a man and can therefore never get pregnant, but I’m going to tell women what they can and can’t do with their womb. Oh, and I’m going to tell them that they can’t have painkillers.

      Second, as another person pointed out, it isn’t just women who are vulnerable – EVERYONE is. But you dismiss that by shifting the goalposts to deplore violence in general, which is what you SHOULD have done in the first place. That would have been a good argument. Too bad you only went to that one when your original one was, to use a violent phrase, shot down.

      And I notice you point out elsewhere that three women are murdered every day, which we can all agree is a tragedy. Actually, three separate tragedies. However, I did a quick Google search and notice that you left out “in domestic violence,” which is rather important as I have not yet seen a game that includes the option of abusing and murdering a spouse or romantic partner.

      But in all honesty, the issue is American society. Sell a game where you CHOOSE (such a wonderful word) between good and evil? Fine. Kill everyone you meet with a headshot? Good entertainment. Sex scenes? OH MY GOD WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?! THIS GARBAGE CANNOT BE SOLD!

      In response to another comment. See in context »
    • collapse expand

      If I could so surmise, the medium to you is saturated with games solely predicated around violence and objectification of women. Never mind that games like Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, and Bioshock have pushed the boundaries of videogames towards art.

      And the idea of morality, and ethical decisions being played out in videogames is an interesting debate. Its an immersive process, similar to moral decisions we make everyday. Like making baseless value judgements about a medium we’ve never played, and about its consumers who we broadly paint with labels while preaching open-mindedness.

      Quite frankly, I don’t understand how you could write on “prostitutes and Grand Theft Auto” if you’ve never played the series. I am a historian, and I treat my sources,and conclusions with the utmost degree of inquiry and exploration. I would think a writer would do the same.

      In response to another comment. See in context »
  3. collapse expand

    “That’s a fairly narrow view. You can be just as vile and violent to men in Rockstar games as you can to women. It’s equal opportunity violence.”

    Which makes it all so much better.

    “As Americans we love our violence. Whether it’s movies, TV, games or the nightly news violence is as much a part of American culture as apple pie and baseball.”

    I would be interested — Stephen? — in any cross-cultural comparisons of the popularity of such “fake” violence. I was born and raised in Canada and, even after 22 years living in the U.S., don’t feel compelled to be sufficiently patriotic as to get all happy when offered the chance to commit virtual murder and mayhem.

    This bloodthirstiness is not the most admired American quality beyond the myopic borders.

    The fact gamers now have even more moral choices is a distinction lost on me. I’m quite aware there are plenty of cute/fun/non-lethal games.

    The appeal of those that aren’t is what appalls me. There is no argument to be made, in a culture (the U.S.) where three real women every day are killed, that this is something easily reduced to an intellectual argument. Reducing other people to a bloody mist is only sexy and amusing to people who have never really done or witnessed it.

    • collapse expand

      My comment about “equal opportunity violence” was meant to point out the uniformed rhetoric that goes around on this topic about the violence always being directed at a single demographic whether it’s women, police, or perceived racial options.

      A game that pundits like to talk about as the ultimate example of the evil nature of games is “Postal”. That game is just awful in game play and is downright pointless. It’s an example of a snuff film for video games: prolific violence with no point other than to offend.

      However, games like Red Dead or GTA leave the wanton violence up to the player. There is no requirement to act like a deranged axe murderer or Jack the Ripper. Yes, you do play a gangster of some sort in these games but the escalation of violence is up to the player. The sandbox freedom to do just about anything you like, good or bad, is what appeals to folks.

      Violent games, as are all games, are nothing more than an entertainment outlet for players. The idea it somehow violates societal rules is ludicrous. If the idea that games cause real world violence had any solidity the entire planet would be overrun by violent zombie hordes of gamers. Millions of people of all ages play violent video games around the world. It’s a fundamentally flawed argument to equate real world violence with games. Do parents need to monitor what their children are playing? Absolutely but it’s not the government’s job.

      “Reducing other people to a bloody mist is only sexy and amusing to people who have never really done or witnessed it.”

      Not so. I am a Marine who has seen his share of combat yet I enjoy these games. I know many veterans that enjoy them as well.

      I will tell you this: even in a completely virtual world I have a hard time being evil and I know many gamers who have the same problem. I’m talking about RPGs (role playing games) or sandbox-ers (Red Dead or GTA) and not military/police sims where you are battling the perceived enemy (Nazis, Russians, terrorists, etc.) These moral choice games don’t always boil down to “Do I shoot the little old lady and take her groceries?” or “Do I help her across the street?” Games such as Mass Effect 1 & 2, Bioshock 1 & 2, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and more are perfect examples of moral choice games. The choices you make impact the world around you and you suffer the consequences of your actions, good or bad.

      I don’t think there is anyone out there saying you *have* to enjoy violent games. The right to be appalled by them is the same right that allows others to enjoy them.

      In response to another comment. See in context »
  4. collapse expand

    I’m not sure you could raise a cross-cultural comparison of “fake” violence. You’re only really looking at maybe 20 years of quantifiable data in the US and even less overseas. If any other territory could be used for analogy, it would be Japan, which has a distinct and large market for the revoltingly perverse, on the level that is not present in America.

    I don’t know what this means but I derive several thoughts from it … Japan is more culturally conservative, so their games, their fantasy products, are all the more extreme. Many of the males are strongly sexually inhibited, exacerbating the level of fringe perversion in sexually explicit media. A high degree of loneliness exists between the small spaces that separate people on their very small sliver of land, which I see as a principle driver for their hyper-advanced communications infrastructure, ultimately driving new methods of game development to enhance and expand potential interactions between real people and virtual worlds.

    By comparison, I would expect that American culture has a similar influence on western game development. Like all art, these products do not drive society’s prime movers: they are merely reflected.

    By the nature of this medium, I believe it very legitimate to reduce our discussion to an intellectual argument over your correctly visceral reaction.

    But then again, just like if a horrible villain did something of this nature in the real old west, the game will organize a posse of lawmen to come after you for blatant criminal activity. Of course, evading them or being killed while trying is just another part of the fun: one more entry to the game’s long list of choices you’d never make in real life.

  5. collapse expand

    “There is no argument to be made, in a culture (the U.S.) where three real women every day are killed, that this is something easily reduced to an intellectual argument.”

    Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of real Iraqis and tens of thousands of real US citizens dead, maimed, or psychologically damaged in the wake of a foreign policy run amok, and video games that glorify militaristic mayhem in “fake” hegemonic pursuits.

    I’m not defending it by any means, but at least when gaming as a gangster, one knows they are vicariously acting out the role of a bad guy. Games of violent military conquest glorify it and portray the perpetrators as heroic. I find that even more abhorrent than a train running over a nun, as bad as that might be.

    • collapse expand

      Let me know how many people you find who are “…dead, maimed or psychologically damaged” by military games. ;)

      Saying the Bush Doctrine and the two wars we are fighting can also be attributed to Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is a bit of a stretch.

      What are your thoughts on books & movies (historical and fiction) that “glorify it and portray the perpetrators as heroic”?

      In response to another comment. See in context »
      • collapse expand

        Depends on the cause of depicted violence. Sometimes, fighting is justified. But I would think that glorifying a group of warriors based on nationality is morally ambiguous, as opposed to rendering them as heroes by the righteousness of their cause.

        Still, I’d say that any teen who glamorizes war thanks to a youth full of military-based first person shooters is “psychologically damaged”.

        I took a step or two down that road as a youth and almost joined the military after high school. My rudimentary image of the greater world was amazingly misled, a preconceived pseudo-reality that many people are still part of. I’m very grateful that I didn’t sign up.

        In response to another comment. See in context »
        • collapse expand

          I still fail to see how a FPS is any more damaging than watching Saving Private Ryan or The Pacific. In fact, those movies depict war in a much more realistic and graphic way than any video game has to date.

          Anyone playing a game knows it’s a game. It is also up to the parents, not the government or media, to counter the perceived effects of video games. My five year old son has watched me play Modern Warfare 2 and is perfectly capable of recognizing it as non-reality and a game. I would let him watch hours of MW2 game play before I would ever let him watch Saving Private Ryan or any other modern war movie.

          I don’t know about you but I grew up in the 70s/80s when war was just as glorified (post-Vietnam) as anything today. Sure we didn’t have the realism of today’s video games but we did have the long run of 80s ‘Nam movies, Rambo, Ronald Reagan, realistic toy guns and the education in the glory that was WWII.

          War and the military have always been glorified in the USA. Which is why the American public has no stomach for the realities of war provided by today’s instantaneous digital media. It’s also why our military is severely hampered in it’s ability to fight. Of course, that’s a discussion for another time.

          But, c’mon, everyone’s youth (at least in the States) is a time most often not punctured by reality. Personally, I think the youth of today are more aware of the realities of life thanks to the digital age and the Internets.

          Like I’ve mentioned before, my time at GameStop (the modern heart of video game retailing) showed me that the overwhelming majority of people, young and old, playing video games understand the difference between a game and reality. Those that don’t (like Columbine and VA Tech) were already off-kilter due to many other reasons aside from video games.

          In response to another comment. See in context »
  6. collapse expand

    I wrote a meditation on violence in video games. Interested to hear some thoughts. http://samuelfletcher.com/?p=29

  7. collapse expand

    “This was clearly illustrated in the video which Take 2 had removed. The same media-savvy publisher does not have a problem with all the crazy, vulgar GTA IV clips featured on YouTube, which might suggest they’re either hugely embarrassed by their own intellectual property or are engaging in efforts to preemptively dodge negative press.”

    The video was only taken down because the games not supposed to be in the public’s hands yet. After Tuesday, you’ll see videos like that staying up only for the reason that the street date has passed.

  8. collapse expand

    Uff, now it begins with another Take 2 game…

    “Guns don’t kill people. People do” (c)

    Games incite no more “violence” than a blockbuster movie, an adventure book or a moronic reality show.

    If a parent fails to raise a sane person – shame on him, he should be sterilized.

    Following the same kind of logic one may argue that the the video game industry is outrageously sexist since 99,9% of antagonists happen to be men, so men are (virually) slaughtered on a genocide scale every single day.

    Which is genuinely stupid.

    You may go to the church, hogtie a noun and kidnap her. What’s stopping you? Law? Morality?
    The same is in the game. But in the game even if your morality fails, you will not harm anyone.

    Except you are an 13yo idiot, your mother is a moron who bought you an M-rated game and your father is downright stupid by not having locked his 12-gauge shotgun he happens to have at home for… erhm… for the sake of having a loaded weapon at home, maybe (yeah, like that will never bite him in the @&&).

  9. collapse expand

    Why are nuns more important than other human beings again?

  10. collapse expand

    Being an avid gamer. I think there are multiple moral views and points that come up with these sandbox style video games. From what I’ve read is that it promotes
    Graphic Violence Against Women. For me I think people who say this need to make a better argument by saying the problem is SEXISM.

    Violence against women is a by product of Sexism. Violence for violence sake is just violence. Which I agree is bad stuff and it shouldn’t be done. There are games with graphic violence weather its FPS(Call Of Duty), Platform Games(God of War), RPGs (Fallout), etc.

    Violence is a reality in our every day lives. Yet I do not get so disturbed with violence in some video games. Either I am numbed by seeing it so much, but I do have a conscious and certain moral values. I think it comes down to how it is portrayed. I do question how mature it is to have violence enacted in an extremely immature manner. Examples I can give are in COD 4 where you mow down innocent people in an airport. Or in God of War 3 where you have to press buttons to slice off the legs of Hermes which you have beaten to a pulp, or even push a helpless naked woman around to a gear crank where you will eventually use her as a wedge to keep a gate open(Thank god they didn’t show that scene but you could hear her inevitable death). And of course GTA where you can solicite a prostitute then have the option to kill her to get your money back. I don’t see why games need to provide some of these sort of sick interactive moments. Especially to another human being that is either innocent or known in society as less then human. It is one thing to shoot the nazi army or else the world will fall under facism, or to drive your flaming sword into the belly of the beast or the princess will die. There are mature ways to show violence and certain consequences of it in a morally tasteful way.

    As for sexism. I find the game and entertainment industry very sexist. Men are taught from day one to not be a pussy(vagina). You have to be strong and to show that strength you must be violent occasionally. Women should be lady like and not be violent creatures (not allowed in the army, should stay at home). Manhood is proven through your virility(promiscuity, being oversexed is normal because you’re a man(gender) Like buying porn, going to strip clubs or getting prostitutes. Women should be pure and their virginity is something you claim or must keep for yourself to give to someone. If women have more then 1 partner they are whores. Women are pretty much treated less then men and it is extremely unequal. They are displayed in unnatural ways ie. fake boobs, anorexic bodies. Men need to be BIG in muscle and downstairs (which I think is crazy and stupid).

    Prostitution is the objectification of a human being weather it is female or male. Weather its legal or not its still treating someone as a product rather a human being (feelings, relationship, intimacy, nuances that make us all who we are as individual people). I’m not so sure how many men deeply respect the prostitute they are seeing as nothing more then a way to get off. Unfortunately it is mostly women who take on this practice. Violence against a prostitute is terrible, let alone anybody. With a sexiest society, violence against a women prostitute is exponentially worse. Having it in a game geared and marketed towards young men in a sexist society is just supporting and glorifying this terrible behavior.

    Game developers are just giving out ammunition to opponents of video games that have mature content in them. As a society I think we need to question ourselves and rise to a higher level of awareness. Yes there are terrible things in this world such as violence, sexism and violence against women as a tool of sexism. Should they be in video games? I really don’t think so. Especially when games are marketed to be just some fun. It really gives a weird twisted confusing message. One that is already filtered into a society numb to violence, sex, and sexism.

    Should I think GTA or REd Dead Redemption be censored? No. I do think some content could be changed to not support sexism and violent sexism. I think the people who posted the video of killing a nun to be extremely immature. WHy did they have to post it for everyone to see. They can be respectful of people and just do it in their own home. Just like I don’t want to see a video of you doing things in your private lives which I or many others would find questionable. Its in bad taste and though it is an option in the game. It just maybe shows what kind of people they are when they do this. NOt saying they are bad people but that they might be aware or seeing things in different perspective.

    I’m excited for Red Dead Redemption. And interested in the open world inter activity. I just hope they don’t portray women so poorly. But there is some hope because of the trailer they sent out highlighting the women of RDR. having prostitutes in the game doesn’t bother me too much as you can’t get their services, but I know there is a scene of grotesque graphic murder of one of them makes me stop and think about it more. Knowing that troubles me.

    Can we be more mature as gamers and developers of open world video games? I think so. I just hope people strive for that and not dig at the bottom of the barrel to showcase violence and sexism so that people are shocked and stimulated in a negative unhealthy way. I think it would invite plenty of more gamers and especially female gamers. I know that was long but this stuff is very complex

  11. collapse expand

    *NOt saying they are bad people but that they might NOT be aware or seeing things in different perspective.

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    About Me

    My name is Stephen. I am a News Junkie and an assistant editor at RawStory.com. My work has appeared in publications both printed and online, including The Dallas Business Journal, the cover of Fort Worth Weekly and in the pages of The Dallas Morning News, Austin Monthly, Envy Magazine and others. I also covered the rebirth of the U.S. peace movement first-hand for The Lone Star Iconoclast in Crawford, Texas, starting with the city's first public screening of 'Fahrenheit 9/11' all the way through the end of Cindy Sheehan's stay. I've seen my reporting discussed in publications such as Time, Wired, Reason, The Washington Post, D Magazine, The Guardian UK, Media Matters, ThinkProgress, Alternet, Cannabis Culture, 1-UP, Destructoid, Kotaku, GameSpot, G4TV and many others. I am currently open for freelance assignments and actively seeking a literary agent. You can follow me on Twitter @StephenCWebster, or from Facebook.com/StephenCWebster.

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