Does Belief in God Make People Prosperous?
On Wednesday, November 25, I appeared on Hugh Hewitt’s syndicated conservative talk radio show in a two-hour debate with Dinesh D’Souza on the afterlife (Dinesh has a new book out on the topic). We did discuss the possibility of life after death (“I’m for it, of course” is my short answer, but more on this topic in another blog post), but this being the day before Thanksgiving Hugh wanted to devote time to discussing what we were thankful for. You can read the entire transcript of the show here.
I’ve been on Hugh’s show before, and have had a number of interactions with him dating back to the early 1990s when he had a very lively right-left political debate show with the über liberal and super-über smart Patt Morrison on the Los Angeles PBS affiliate KCET. Hugh is wicked smart and very well read. I’ll never forget a town-car ride Hugh and I shared from the airport to a God debate he was moderating between myself and a theist. We discussed God, the afterlife, morality, free will, etc., and when we got out the town-car driver said it was the most interesting conversation he had ever heard two people have in the back of his car (and I don’t think we even once mentioned sex). My distinct memory of that debate was that Hugh, who is a vocal born-again evangelical Christian, was the perfect gentleman host, fair and balanced throughout the entire debate and all the way through the audience Q & A, until he could contain himself no longer and after my response to a question from the audience, Hugh jumped in ahead of my debate opponent to rebut my answer!
Well, something like this happened in last week’s radio debate. Hugh was unfailingly polite and fair…all the way to the very end when he could contain himself no longer and unleashed upon me a barrage of frustration when I failed to answer the question he asked—“Is the world better off with people believing in the afterlife?”—in a manner that satisfied him. I actually have a good answer (below), but I didn’t think of it at that moment, and instead argued that believing something just because you think it will make things better is not a good enough reason. You should believe something because it’s true. (Dinesh correctly noted that believers are not pretending to believe but really do believe.) Hugh correctly pressed on that he was asking something different about the benefits of belief, so I answered: “Well, okay, I guess you could make the argument, sort of a simpleton argument that people are stupid, and they need a little policeman in their head, or else we won’t have a civil society. Come on, I think that’s a pretty shallow argument. … If you really believe that the afterlife, belief in the afterlife leads to a better society, then why would you bother, Hugh, as a lawyer, to have a rule of law in a society? Why do you care about justice now? Why do you care that the 9/11 conspiracists are put on trial?”
Hugh responded: “I will answer your question by answering I don’t answer the questions. I moderate. But Dinesh, I must tell you, it is always a frustration of mine that when I argue with the atheists, even nice ones like Michael, they refuse to answer the utilitarian questions, and I think it’s because in that argument dissolves all of their objections to faith.”
Fair enough. I didn’t address the utilitarian question up front. But I did answer it earlier in the show when Hugh asked Dinesh and I what we thought people were giving thanks for or to whom. Dinesh’s answer was actually quite nuanced and thoughtful, but he ended (as you would expect from a believer) with this ultimate conclusion: “I think that the sense of gratitude, in a sense, points to God. The atheists, I feel a little sorry for in a way, because you have this overwhelming sense that life is a gift, that there is a sense of gratitude, but there’s no one to thank. There’s no one out there.” I answered Dinesh (and this is my answer to Hugh’s later utilitarian question):
“Yeah, baloney. I mean, if you think about, is it religion that gives us all this abundance of food and security and freedom? No. If you go to Peru, 99.9% of the people believe in Jesus. They’re Catholics. They’re deeply religious, and they’re dirt poor. It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with property rights, the rule of law, capitalism, free trade, low taxes, all the stuff that we practice here in America. That has nothing to do with religion. God doesn’t give us that. We create that. Most South American countries are way more religious than even America, and yet they’re dirt poor. It has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with social structure, and what we create here on Earth, not in some afterlife or what God gives us.”
Q.E.D., better late than never.
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Michael, fair point, but I think one needs to keep the distinction between belief in the afterlife and religion. Does it make a difference to this debate? I think it does, because belief determines the way an individual conducts his/her life, whereas religion can (and often does) determine how a community/society operates. Hence, in the example of S.America, religion (especially in its organized form) actually functions as its own social structure, regardless of belief in the afterlife! So, essentially all that proves is the Catholic structure in S.America does not make people prosperous!
On the other hand, an individual who believes his/her purpose on earth is to glorify their Creator, which leads to a meaningful, diligent work ethic, and a desire to improve their own lives and the lives of others, is likely to become “prosperous” in some way or another.
In other words, (dare I say) I think your argument doesn’t really answer the question.
But it’s the individuals and their beliefs that makes up the religion and the community. Without the belief, the religion just isn’t there.
You seem to be making the organized religion is evil vs my private beliefs are pure (not to mention valid) argument. You either see why this makes no sense or you don’t, and I suspect no amount of conversation could change your mind. You know as well as I do that every religious/spiritual person has a claim to the truth, often to the exclusion of all others. I suppose it gives you comfort, but, to me at least, it makes no sense to say that your personal link to God makes you hard working and prosperous, whereas those South Americans who believe in the wrong way are given the short end of the stick. People can justify it all day long, but at the very end, it boils down to a morality that fits your world view, not a concrete guide to life and the nature of God.
In response to another comment. See in context »Mr. Shermer,
The Bible itself answers that question in the Book of Job. Job is brought down from a life of comfort and success to the lowest state imaginable not because of any sin of his own, not in spite of the fact that he was “perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil”, but BECAUSE he “holdeth fast his integrity”. Job’s horrible suffering, including financial, was the direct result of his faith.
Jesus likes notes that “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” Jesus would seem to suggest that God does not reward or punish people on the Earth at this time or how else could all of the injustice in the world be explained?
Jesus further observes that “For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” Jesus seems to see wealth as an impediment to knowing God, not the reward for knowing God.
But those are just his ideas.
To answer your question, “Does believing in god make people preposterous?”, YES! It’s on the same level of ridiculousness as believing in leprechauns, unicorns, tooth fairies, and Santa Claus.
It’s time for people to grow up, put away their imaginary friends and come to the realization that there is no big guy in the sky who gives a damn about us down here. We are on our own.
I initially thought it read “Does Belief in God Make People Pompous?” Glean from that what you will. I think it’s hilarious!
Your answer to the “theology of affluence” is one that’s been absent too long in answers to those who preach that if you love God enough, God will reward you in the here and now with a Rolex, or at least three squares a day. (Add Africa to South America for the Daily Double.)
That theology always sounds like heresy to me, counter to most if not all the other major tenets of Abramic religion as I was taught them growing up Presbyterian. It’s one you only hear espoused by those who were born on third base and think they hit the triple. If there’s a better response to the “utilitarian” critique, I’d love to hear it.
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What is it with the never-ending need to debate God? I can’t help but believe that this behavior is based on a desire to find a childish concrete faith. I agree with Mr. Hewitt’s point “they refuse to answer the utilitarian questions, and I think it’s because in that argument dissolves all of their objections to faith” Though I think Mr. Hitchens unwittingly gives the most cogent quote when he said “I haven’t yet run into an argument that has made me want to change my mind.”
If Hugh is so “wicked smart”, then he wasn’t just waiting “until he could contain himself no longer”.
It looks more like he deliberately evoked your trust by listening to you in the car and treated you fairly through most of the debate only so you wouldn’t see it coming when he gave you the Fox News treatment right at the end.
Apparently, you fell for it twice.