But Ed Lucas told me that Putin was a neo-Soviet!
Not Vladimir Putin
Vladimir Putin today became the first Russian leader to join Polish officials in commemorating the anniversary of the execution of thousands of Polish officers by Stalin’s security police. This is merely the 10,000,000th piece of evidence demonstrating that, whatever he might be, Vladimir Putin is not a Soviet communist.People who are truly “Soviet” in their world views still blame Katyn on the Nazis (see the end of this post for more on this). Literally the last thing that someone who is purely a “proud KGB spy”would do is openly acknowledge the guilt of the KGB’s predecessor in one of history’s nastier crimes.
This is not to say that Putin’s speech is perfect: he spends rather a lot of time detailing how awful life in the Soviet Union was during the 1930’s due to the massive terror unleashed by Stalin. He even lists a number of locales where particularly gruesome mass-executions tool place, engaging in a sort of competition of “which country suffered the most massacres” (Russia always wins this, BTW). Putin also shies away from a full and unequivocal acceptance of responsibility for Soviet actions at Katyn…but is that really surprising? Or unique? Isn’t that what politicians, particularly nationalist ones, do in any country, try to put the best possible face on things?
What this speach absolutely demonstrates, and for the consumers of the illiterate Western press corps this will come as shocking news, is that Putin, like most Russians, has a profoundly conflicted view of Soviet history. He is proud of the Red Army’s role in defeating the Nazis, but palpably disgusted at the massive human costs of Stalin’s system.
Below I’ve provided a translation of what I considered to be the more interesting parts of Putin’s address (I’ve also provided the link so you can see the full thing for yourselves). What I think readers should keep in mind is that this speech was not some offhanded comment given during a press conference: it was prepared with the full knowledge that it would be endlessly replayed all around the world. Putin is not a foolish man, and in such a situation he chooses his words very deliberately and with great caution. Does this mean that Putin is 100% sincere in his statements that the Russian and Polish people (who have loathed each other for centuries) are natural allies? No, politicians are virtually never 100% sincere. But someone who is planning to reinstate Stalinism, or even some modernized and sanitized form of it, would never in a million years go on the public record with such sentiments. Never. I would even meekly propose that this speech shows Putin to be what I, and many other reasonably informed analysts of Russia, consider him: a nationalist who is a strange, and contradictory, mixture of liberal, conservative, reactionary, and progressive.
From Putin’s website , the speech he gave in Katyn:
России и Польше, как никаким другим странам, русским и полякам, как никаким другим народам Европы, выпало пережить практически все трагедии ХХ века, заплатить непомерно высокую цену за две мировые войны, за братоубийственные вооруженные конфликты, за жестокость и бесчеловечность тоталитаризма.
Russia and Poland, like no other countries, and the Russian and Polish people, like no other nations of Europe, survived practically all of the tragedies of the 20th centuries, and paid an exorbitantly high price for two world wars, for fratricidal armed conflicts, for cruelty, and for the inhumanity of totalitarianism.
Нашему народу, который прошел через ужасы гражданской войны, насильственную коллективизацию, через массовые репрессии 1930-х годов очень хорошо понятно, может быть, лучше, чем кому бы то ни было, что значат для многих польских семей Катынь, Медное, Пятихатка. Потому что в этом скорбном ряду и места массовых расстрелов советских граждан. Это и Бутовский полигон под Москвой, Секирная гора на Соловках, расстрельные рвы Магадана и Воркуты, безымянные могилы Норильска и Беломорканала.
It is very clear to our nation, which endured the horror of the civil war, forced collectivization, the massive repressions of the 1930s, perhaps clearer than to any other, what Katyn means for many Polish families. Because this is also a place of massive executions of Soviet citizens. So are the Butovo firing range near Moscow, Mount Sekirnaya on the Solovetsky islands, the shooting ditches of Magadan and Vorkuta, the nameless graves of Norislk and the Belomar Canal.
Этим преступлениям не может быть никаких оправданий. В нашей стране дана ясная политическая, правовая, нравственная оценка злодеяниям тоталитарного режима. И такая оценка не подлежит никаким ревизиям.
For such crimes there can be no kind of justification. In our country a clear political, legal, and moral estimate of the atrocities of the totalitarian regime has been given. And such an estimate will be subject to no kinds of revisions.
Перед этими могилами, перед людьми, которые приходят сюда почтить память своих близких, было бы лицемерно сказать: «Давайте всё забудем». Было бы лицемерно сказать, что всё кануло в Лету.
In front ot these graves, in front of people who came here to remember their relatives, it would be hypocritical to say: "let’s forget all of this. It would be hypocritical to say that everything has sunk into oblivion.
Нет, мы обязаны хранить память о прошлом, и, конечно, будем это делать, какой бы горькой ни была эта правда. Нам не дано изменить прошлого, но в наших силах – сохранить или восстанавливать правду, а значит, и историческую справедливость.
No, we are obligated to preserve the memory of the past and, of course, we will do this, no matter how bitter the truth is. We are not able to change the past but it is in our power to preserve or rehabilitate the truth and also historical justice.
This post is getting rather long and unwieldy, but I wanted to add one more thing. Regarding a comment I made earlier, which appeared to draw a fair amount of flack, that Russian communists are “really nasty and scary people” here is what the party’s web site had to say about Putin’s visit to Katyn:
Сегодня лидер «Единой России» господин Путин вновь вслед за Горбачёвым и Ельциным будет в очередной раз извиняться в Катыни. Можно сколько угодно извиняться за так называемую советскую вину, но никто не может скрыть бесспорных исторических фактов о причастности немцев к массовым расстрелам польских военнослужащих, как вскрытых еще комиссией академика Бурденко, так и получаемых общественной комиссией во главе с депутатом Госдумы В.И.Илюхиным из различных российских архивов.
Today the leader of “United Russia” Mr. Putin again followed Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and will again apologize in Katyn. One can apologize as much as one wants about the so-called Soviet guilt, but no one can hide the fact of German responsibility for the mass-shootings of Polish soldiers, which was again obtained by a commission of the academic Burdenko, and as was received by the social commission which was headed by the deputy of the State Duma V.I. Ilyukhin from various Russian archives.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to m. Oh wait…I’m sorry, that is totally and completely batshit insane! Katyn is a historical fact, a particularly reprehensible one at that. The NKVD executed tens of thousands of Polish officers. Full stop. Anyone who can’t come to terms with Soviet responsibility for this crime, or who insists on absurdly pawning off the guilt on the Germans, is beneath contempt. I didn’t call the KPRF “nasty” because I have compromised mental functions or some undisguised bias (as far as I know, no Adomanis has ever been harmed by a communist or a Russian) but because the KPRF has held and continues to hold a number of palpably false, historically illiterate, and morally revolting positions. I will stop calling the KPRF a nasty bunch of mendacious cretins when they stop doing things like denying Soviet guilt for the Katyn executions. Does that sound reasonable to everybody?
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Интересно, а сами американцы извинились перед коренными жителями Северной Америки за то, что более половины племен были истреблены, а остальные загнаны в резервуары? А сами поляки извинились перед теперь уже Украины и Белоруссии за то, что огнем и мечем заставляли стать католиками народ? Или же они все скинут на Зигмунда, бывшего короля Швеции. Сталин был грузином, а Советский Союз союзом республик, которой была и Грузинская ССР. Пусть они и извиняются за Катынь. Согласись, это правильно. Ведь когда нападающий какой-нибудь футбольной команды не забивает гол при пенальти, винят его, а не какого-нибудь защитника этой же команды.
p.s. Может я и веду себя троллем или неадекватен, но я устал слышать, что везде куда не сунь виноваты русские.
Ты бы хоть пару слов сказал по-английски, а то превратим бедный ТРУ/СЛАНТ в ИНОСМИ 2.0 Оно им надо ???
In response to another comment. See in context »Да Сталин грузин но этот факт не имеет ни какого значения для разговора о Катыни. Сотрудники НКВД, которые застреляли тысячи польских офицеров, какими они былы? Большинство их конечно было русским.
In response to another comment. See in context »Я вообще считаю, что определять национальность в таких вопросах глупо. СССР как и США – многонациональные державы. Но если на то пошло, то сотрудники НКВД выполняли приказ. Который отдавал лично Сталин (а Сталин у нас кто ??? правильно – грузин.) Хотя, возможно, отдавал его (в смысле приказ)и Берия, но он тоже грузин.
In response to another comment. See in context »Марк, не подумай – я не расист, но большая часть репрессивного аппарата были грузинами. Самые известные из них – это сам Сталин и его правая рука Берия.
In response to another comment. See in context »How is this relevant whether Stalin was Georgian? Dzerzhinsky was Polish, wasn’t he. It was soviet communist regime who committed those crimes. Stalin also murdered around
In response to another comment. See in context »111 000 ethically polish soviet citizens during 1937-38 purges. He didn’t need any Katyn for this.
Reasonable people agree with Putin that you can’t blame Russians for those crimes. It’s not anti-Russian sentiment, there is the need to hear Russian government say that what Stalin did was wrong and unforgivable.
Im nоt fаn оf Рutin аnd Меdvеdеv. I didt vоtе fоr thеm. Вut! I wаnnа tеll оnе thing: Воris Yеltsin (“Symbоl оf Russiаn Dеmосrаty”), didt tоld NОТHING аbоut роlish оffiсеrs in Kаtyn. Аnd by thе wаy whеn i rеаd аbоut nео-соmmunist Рutin in wеstеrn nеws, its mаkе mе lаugh соz Yеltsin wаs МОRЕ соmmunist thаn him. Не wаs mаdе by Sоviеt systеm. Вut nоbоdy оn thе Wеst dnt wаnt tо knоw аbоut thаt. Ехсusе mе fоr my еnglish. Для челов с ИноСМИ: Давайте отвечать за себя. Здесь речь идет про Катынь, а не про Корею. Так, что постите не по теме.
Согласен. Только не понял причём здесь Корея. За Катынь как раз и говорим. Заодно и Марк в русском поупражняется.
In response to another comment. See in context »Thank you, Mark.
Good speech delivered by Mr.Putin. The only one thing he definitely forgot, as a truly polite gentleman, to thank Poland for exporting to Russia the founder of NKVD-KGB, Felix Dzerzhinsky, “Felix of Iron”. That’s a sort of historical irony, don’t you think so?
I think it’s pretty hard for an American to comprehend the sophisticated centuries-old relationship between Russia and Poland (and Lithuania), please, keep trying.
Putin also forgot to thank Poland for not just pleading for Napoleon to invade Russia, but also contributing 100,000 of its men to the cause… and being the most guilty in the ransacking of Moscow, including the desecration of Russian Orthodox property, whilst they stayed in Russia’s first city.
Over 100 years later, Poles demolished Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Warsaw because the Russian Orthodox Cathedral, being their country’s tallest building, “hurt their feeling.”
I generally don’t like bringing up history for spite, but Edward Lucas sometimes riles my nerves with his nationalistic Polish anti-Russian agenda — and I’m not even Russian.
In response to another comment. See in context »Colleen,
I agree the Poles are not the meek little saints they’re sometimes made out to be by Western academics (cough cough Norman Davies) but that doesn’t justify any of the truly grotesque bits of treatment meted out by the Russians over the past hundred odd years.
The Katyn murders were truly horrific, is that really such a debatable point? Why can’t we just all agree on that for more than 5 seconds at a time? I suppose Napoleon’s invasion was bad, too, but as far as I know there aren’t any French imperial dead-enders who still make a point of either justifying the early 19th century invasion of Russia or (to make the analogy complete) blaming it on the Italians.
In response to another comment. See in context »I could just imagine Putin, there in Katyn, bringing up Napoleonic Wars and demolishing of Cathedral in Warsaw. What else… Polish invasions of Moscow and False Dimitrys, numerous wars against Russia by Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. I suppose all of this perfectly justifies Katyn and NKVD operations against Poles in Soviet Union. He should have mentioned Dzierżyński too, naturally, Poles have only themselves to blame.
In fact, Putin did just the right thing… he brought up 32,000 Red Army soldiers who died of hunger and illness in Polish captivity after Polish-Bolshevik war. Relevant, important, and needs to be remembered.
In response to another comment. See in context »OK, I might be called a cold bastard for saying this (go ahead) – but what makes Katyn so special?
22,000 Polish soldiers massacred. Around FOUR TIMES as many Soviet POW’s died in Polish captivity during the Soviet-Polish War. Everything pales besides what the Nazis accomplished in both Poland and the USSR.
The Poles want Russia’s acknowledgement of responsibility for transparently political reason, and furthermore I don’t see objectively any reason why today’s Russia has to give it. Putin only did the acceptable maximum. I wouldn’t even do that unless 1) the Germans make a habit of taking responsibility for their WW2 crimes every year and 2) the Poles apologize for the Soviet POW deaths which I don’t believe they have yet done (unlike the late USSR which apologized for Katyn).
PS. That is what a DEPUTY of the KPRF said about Katyn. Just because there are some Republican wackos who say outrageous things about Muslims or global warming activists doesn’t mean Republican voters or even the Republican Party itself is nasty or evil.
Or the habit of republican governors of Virginia declaring April “Confederate History Month”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/06/AR2010040604416.html
Money quote:
“The two previous Democratic governors had refused to issue the mostly symbolic proclamation honoring the soldiers who fought for the South in the Civil War. McDonnell (R) revived a practice started by Republican governor George Allen in 1997. McDonnell left out anti-slavery language that Allen’s successor, James S. Gilmore III (R), had included in his proclamation. “
In response to another comment. See in context »Привет, Марк!
Ты упомянул вскользь о: “number of locales where particularly gruesome mass-executions tool place, engaging in a sort of competition of “which country suffered the most massacres”, но для полного понимания ситуации этот момент нужно развернуть.
Путин сказал вполне конкретно о красноармейцах (до 80 тысяч), погибших в польских концлагерях (Тухол) и о том, что один из вариантов причин Катыни – месть Сталина за этих погибших (потому что основную массу пленных поляков не расстреляли, а сослали в Сибирь, где из них впоследствии формировали армию для борьбы с Гитлером).
В 1919 и 1920 году именно Польша была агрессором, так что польские войска пришлось выбивать из Киева и гнать поляков до Варшавы, где Красная армия потерпела поражение. Потерянные территории были возвращены только в 1939 году, после чего и наступила расплата для поляков.
Поэтому, нельзя рассматривать Катынь отдельно от исторического контекста и предшествующих событий.
Катынь – расплата за Тухол, также как предыдущие разделы Польши – расплата за Смутное Время, Лжедмитрия и оккупацию поляками Москвы.
Россия всегда приходит за долгом.
[...] article, though, is her obtuse refusal to admit that Putin is not a Stalinist. Baltic spy Mark Adomanis has already raged quite convincingly against this neocon meme, but it’s worth drawing additional [...]
The one upshot of the ‘Putin is a Stalinist, what’s up his sleeve with this Katyn memorial stunt’ is that the people who ask this question reveal how ideologically foolish they really are.
Putin critics were genuinely scratching their heads when they learned about this, trying to reconcile it with their own garbage articles about how Vova loves Stalin and wants to reinstate the Soviet Union. To anybody outside DC’s echo chamber, this public airing of cluelessness is happy evidence of the American “elite”’s educated-stupid groupthink.
AGT:
This is what drew me away from the Russophobe-right. EVERYTHING is evidence that Putin is an evil KGB spy. Did he just NOT apologize for Stalin? Well, clearly he’s a spy. Did he just ACTUALLY apologize for Stalin? It’s a trick! Maskirovka! Maskirovka!
I think anyone who is minimally curious can go and watch Putin’s speeches and, more importantly, analyze his record as president and in about 5 minutes discover that he’s neither a Stalinist nor a communist. This doesn’t make him good, but it’s really quite pitiful to see people scramble around for ever weaker bits of evidence to support the “Putin is Stalin” thesis. I wouldn’t be half surprised if sometime in the next six months NRO published a Ion Mihae Pacepa article arguing that Putin’s fondness for khachapuri proves he is the vozhd’s heir.
In response to another comment. See in context »НКВД выполнила приказ, пусть даже он не правильный. И думаю там были не только русские. И они все чисты в своей деятельности, ибо неподчинение приказа означало бы неповиновение власти. У НКВД,как и любой другой организации такого уровня в такие же времена, не имеют права ослушания прямого приказа главы правительства. Виноват грузин, пусть они и отвечают. Ведь, допустим, эстонца работающего тогда в НКВД, не обвиняют его страну. А СССР не была не прошлой не нынешней Россией. Это был Союз Республик и все СНГ виновато, победитель, проигравший во всей деятельности Советских республик. А выясняется, что виновата Россия, а мы тут не причем. А ведь мы все вместе посылали первого космонавта в космос, мы вместе стали первыми чемпионами в Чемпионата Европы по футболу,Вместе брали Берлин, вместе были в афгане и так далее. но отвечает только Россия за провалы Советского правительства.
p.s. В грузии есть и поистине великие люди. взять того же генерала Багратиона,сражающегося вместе с Суворовым, Кутузовым, Барклай-де-Толем во славу Российской империи. Он умер от ран после того, как узнал что Михаил Иларионович сдал Москву (после этого приказа боевой дух и вера в Кутузова упало).
Да и вообще почему они(поляки) не извиняются за то, что отделили Белорусь и Малороссию от центральной Руси?
firefox with plagins and additions will help all, who does not know russian or bad znaet. I here is англиский know well on 3%)))