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	<title>Comments on: Union blocks teacher bonuses, says all teachers should get them regardless of quality</title>
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	<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/</link>
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		<title>By: ianm</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-293</link>
		<dc:creator>ianm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-293</guid>
		<description>I would add that rewarding test scores for a science AP class would incentivize book learning over lab learning.  As a scientist, this is exactly the wrong incentive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add that rewarding test scores for a science AP class would incentivize book learning over lab learning.  As a scientist, this is exactly the wrong incentive.</p>
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		<title>By: teacher</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-292</link>
		<dc:creator>teacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-292</guid>
		<description>What they don&#039;t tell you about the MMSI grant is that there are also funding extensive test prep sessions for the students and for the AP teachers.  I&#039;m an AP teacher who stands to benefit significantly from the bonuses they&#039;re handing out to teachers, but I&#039;m pretty disenchanted with what MMSI is doing.  Everything we&#039;ve been given is geared towards test taking, even though the curricula for many AP classes calls for teaching things that aren&#039;t necessarily tested.  They&#039;re gaming this to &quot;prove&quot; that merit pay works.  

The big problem with merit pay that people don&#039;t seem to understand is that quality is not always valued in the public schools.  In the private sector, it makes sense to pay a more productive employee more money because they make the company more money.  But a good teacher doesn&#039;t make the school system any more money.  There&#039;s not much incentive for a school system to pursue quality teachers.  In many districts, if a ten year professional with two masters degrees comes up against a 23-year-old just out of college in the job market, the kid gets the job.  Why would you trust these districts to properly evaluate and reward teachers on the basis of merit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What they don&#8217;t tell you about the MMSI grant is that there are also funding extensive test prep sessions for the students and for the AP teachers.  I&#8217;m an AP teacher who stands to benefit significantly from the bonuses they&#8217;re handing out to teachers, but I&#8217;m pretty disenchanted with what MMSI is doing.  Everything we&#8217;ve been given is geared towards test taking, even though the curricula for many AP classes calls for teaching things that aren&#8217;t necessarily tested.  They&#8217;re gaming this to &#8220;prove&#8221; that merit pay works.  </p>
<p>The big problem with merit pay that people don&#8217;t seem to understand is that quality is not always valued in the public schools.  In the private sector, it makes sense to pay a more productive employee more money because they make the company more money.  But a good teacher doesn&#8217;t make the school system any more money.  There&#8217;s not much incentive for a school system to pursue quality teachers.  In many districts, if a ten year professional with two masters degrees comes up against a 23-year-old just out of college in the job market, the kid gets the job.  Why would you trust these districts to properly evaluate and reward teachers on the basis of merit?</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention E.D. Kain - American Tory – Union blocks teacher bonuses, says all teachers should get them regardless of quality - True/Slant -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-291</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention E.D. Kain - American Tory – Union blocks teacher bonuses, says all teachers should get them regardless of quality - True/Slant -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-291</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Marjorie Kastner, E.D. Kain. E.D. Kain said: Union blocks teacher bonuses, says all teachers should get them regardless of quality @trueslant http://tinyurl.com/ybfk6vo [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Marjorie Kastner, E.D. Kain. E.D. Kain said: Union blocks teacher bonuses, says all teachers should get them regardless of quality @trueslant <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ybfk6vo" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/ybfk6vo</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ianm</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-289</link>
		<dc:creator>ianm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-289</guid>
		<description>E.D. - My wife did education organizing in Illinois for special needs students and was so disheartened by the experience she is predisposed not to enroll our children in public school. Parents, regardless of income, have almost no sway in a public school system which somewhat amazed my wife.  Living in Nashville, the statements from the teacher&#039;s union and the administration basically trigger me to vomit in my mouth.  Merit pay is fought here because the reward for good teachers is to choose the school they are assigned to.  It&#039;s a constant churn in the poor, African American neighborhoods with the best teachers creating de facto magnets in the wealthiest neighborhoods.  Administrators like having the leverage of assigning teachers to &quot;bad schools&quot; as an auxiliary method of discipline.  As you state above, the kids are the ones who suffer (and Nashville&#039;s choice system is a joke). 
That said, I would encourage you to look at the word choice of the article.  This is a straight up hit piece.  I wandered over to the union website  - it&#039;s always a good idea in a labor dispute to get both sides.  The teacher&#039;s union agreed to take the bulk of the money offered by Exxon, but balked at having the corporation augment their contract rates. Read the counter point: http://www.btu.org/leftnavbar/bulletincurrent.html#LETTER.BLOCK3
There&#039;s no word there of the Gates Foundation and I would be interested to see if their involvement in teacher merit pay was misreported.

O&#039;Bryant is a competitive entry math/science magnet - the students have already chosen to be there and competed to gain entry.  This money is being given to the highest achieving students at a high achievement high school.  Not to be cold, but if you&#039;re in an AP class in a magnet school you are probably not the at risk youth we wring our hands about as a society.  I&#039;m not sure about O&#039;Bryant, but AP classes were somewhat plum assignments in my high school.  The kids care and work hard, teachers get to assign more advanced material.  In Nashville, we are fighting to get the city to give merit pay to better teachers who stay in poorly performing schools.  Here we see a corporation fighting to give the best teachers money to serve the best students - what problem is this solving?  I&#039;m not against teachers receiving merit pay, but this is not the type of merit pay structure I would want in my schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>E.D. &#8211; My wife did education organizing in Illinois for special needs students and was so disheartened by the experience she is predisposed not to enroll our children in public school. Parents, regardless of income, have almost no sway in a public school system which somewhat amazed my wife.  Living in Nashville, the statements from the teacher&#8217;s union and the administration basically trigger me to vomit in my mouth.  Merit pay is fought here because the reward for good teachers is to choose the school they are assigned to.  It&#8217;s a constant churn in the poor, African American neighborhoods with the best teachers creating de facto magnets in the wealthiest neighborhoods.  Administrators like having the leverage of assigning teachers to &#8220;bad schools&#8221; as an auxiliary method of discipline.  As you state above, the kids are the ones who suffer (and Nashville&#8217;s choice system is a joke).<br />
That said, I would encourage you to look at the word choice of the article.  This is a straight up hit piece.  I wandered over to the union website  &#8211; it&#8217;s always a good idea in a labor dispute to get both sides.  The teacher&#8217;s union agreed to take the bulk of the money offered by Exxon, but balked at having the corporation augment their contract rates. Read the counter point: <a href="http://www.btu.org/leftnavbar/bulletincurrent.html#LETTER.BLOCK3" rel="nofollow">http://www.btu.org/leftnavbar/bulletincurrent.html#LETTER.BLOCK3</a><br />
There&#8217;s no word there of the Gates Foundation and I would be interested to see if their involvement in teacher merit pay was misreported.</p>
<p>O&#8217;Bryant is a competitive entry math/science magnet &#8211; the students have already chosen to be there and competed to gain entry.  This money is being given to the highest achieving students at a high achievement high school.  Not to be cold, but if you&#8217;re in an AP class in a magnet school you are probably not the at risk youth we wring our hands about as a society.  I&#8217;m not sure about O&#8217;Bryant, but AP classes were somewhat plum assignments in my high school.  The kids care and work hard, teachers get to assign more advanced material.  In Nashville, we are fighting to get the city to give merit pay to better teachers who stay in poorly performing schools.  Here we see a corporation fighting to give the best teachers money to serve the best students &#8211; what problem is this solving?  I&#8217;m not against teachers receiving merit pay, but this is not the type of merit pay structure I would want in my schools.</p>
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		<title>By: davidlosangeles</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator>davidlosangeles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-285</guid>
		<description>Mr. Kain,

Under your plan, if I were to teach in a school made up mostly of the children of migrant farm workers (who themselves will often work in the same field as their parents) there is simply no way I would ever get a bonus.  If I were to teach in a school made up mostly of the children of college professors, doctors, judges, and the like, so long as I were not a fall-down drunk, I would never fail to get a bonus.

The bonus system cannot overcome the huge disparities between schools.  What is needed are systematic solutions for all schools, teachers, and students.  Dangling a carrot that only a few teachers might hope to get solves nothing.  What is needed is more teachers, who are better trained, with smaller student to teacher ratios, and adequate classroom support.

I know someone who helps build cruise missiles.  They do not get bonuses, they get the best trained engineers with the best equipment in the best facilities and with the best support and so they build the best bombs.  Individual engineers come and go but the system to designs these bombs is always the best.  That is what we need in public education, a great system, not extra scraps for a few teachers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Kain,</p>
<p>Under your plan, if I were to teach in a school made up mostly of the children of migrant farm workers (who themselves will often work in the same field as their parents) there is simply no way I would ever get a bonus.  If I were to teach in a school made up mostly of the children of college professors, doctors, judges, and the like, so long as I were not a fall-down drunk, I would never fail to get a bonus.</p>
<p>The bonus system cannot overcome the huge disparities between schools.  What is needed are systematic solutions for all schools, teachers, and students.  Dangling a carrot that only a few teachers might hope to get solves nothing.  What is needed is more teachers, who are better trained, with smaller student to teacher ratios, and adequate classroom support.</p>
<p>I know someone who helps build cruise missiles.  They do not get bonuses, they get the best trained engineers with the best equipment in the best facilities and with the best support and so they build the best bombs.  Individual engineers come and go but the system to designs these bombs is always the best.  That is what we need in public education, a great system, not extra scraps for a few teachers.</p>
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		<title>By: JF</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>JF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-283</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s actually a very good idea.

One of the things they did wrong at my school was give bonuses to teachers who would transfer in, breeding resentment among longtime teachers (who in some cases were quite good). That&#039;s basically the worst way to structure something like this. I&#039;m not opposed to some kind of merit pay, I just think assigning it across the board - or worse, determining school budgets on that basis, as was done under Jeb - is nearly as bad as nothing. (That, and the FCAT was really a badly designed metric.) I&#039;d oppose any kind of system based on NCLB on that basis, but like I said, I think (as I usually do) that your idea is generally good and the union in Boston is being shortsighted.

And there was at least one way that the union did make things worse for my school, insofar as I think they may have forced the hand of the superintendent in putting the entire staff&#039;s contracts under review, which was likewise not helpful and only heightened suspicions that the teachers were being scapegoated (which to be honest I shared).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s actually a very good idea.</p>
<p>One of the things they did wrong at my school was give bonuses to teachers who would transfer in, breeding resentment among longtime teachers (who in some cases were quite good). That&#8217;s basically the worst way to structure something like this. I&#8217;m not opposed to some kind of merit pay, I just think assigning it across the board &#8211; or worse, determining school budgets on that basis, as was done under Jeb &#8211; is nearly as bad as nothing. (That, and the FCAT was really a badly designed metric.) I&#8217;d oppose any kind of system based on NCLB on that basis, but like I said, I think (as I usually do) that your idea is generally good and the union in Boston is being shortsighted.</p>
<p>And there was at least one way that the union did make things worse for my school, insofar as I think they may have forced the hand of the superintendent in putting the entire staff&#8217;s contracts under review, which was likewise not helpful and only heightened suspicions that the teachers were being scapegoated (which to be honest I shared).</p>
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		<title>By: E.D. Kain</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>E.D. Kain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-281</guid>
		<description>Joseph, take a look at the idea I had for bonuses in my response to David.  I&#039;d like your thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph, take a look at the idea I had for bonuses in my response to David.  I&#8217;d like your thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: E.D. Kain</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-280</link>
		<dc:creator>E.D. Kain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-280</guid>
		<description>David,

I disagree entirely, though I think you&#039;re right to the extent that actually determining who the good teachers are can be very difficult.

My way of restructuring this would be to tie principal pay more directly to overall school performance, and then put the principals more directly in charge of merit pay for teachers.  This way you have the incentives properly structured, and the actual decisions made at ground level.  In the current system, of course, merit pay/bonuses are more difficult to properly distribute.

(P.S. I have taught, so I understand the difficulties facing teachers and with bonus pay.  But I don&#039;t share your overall view that it is impossible, only that we haven&#039;t thought it through properly at this point.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>I disagree entirely, though I think you&#8217;re right to the extent that actually determining who the good teachers are can be very difficult.</p>
<p>My way of restructuring this would be to tie principal pay more directly to overall school performance, and then put the principals more directly in charge of merit pay for teachers.  This way you have the incentives properly structured, and the actual decisions made at ground level.  In the current system, of course, merit pay/bonuses are more difficult to properly distribute.</p>
<p>(P.S. I have taught, so I understand the difficulties facing teachers and with bonus pay.  But I don&#8217;t share your overall view that it is impossible, only that we haven&#8217;t thought it through properly at this point.)</p>
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		<title>By: JF</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>JF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-279</guid>
		<description>Okay, in fairness, I have to say the principal has improved a lot since then. But she was patently in way over her head, and bringing in a successful retired principal as a &quot;mentor&quot; just made things a lot worse. Even though it was years ago, the experience was traumatic - far more so than just being in a bad school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, in fairness, I have to say the principal has improved a lot since then. But she was patently in way over her head, and bringing in a successful retired principal as a &#8220;mentor&#8221; just made things a lot worse. Even though it was years ago, the experience was traumatic &#8211; far more so than just being in a bad school.</p>
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		<title>By: JF</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2009/11/20/union-blocks-teacher-bonuses-says-all-teachers-should-get-them-regardless-of-quality/comment-page-1/#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>JF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/erikkain/?p=635#comment-278</guid>
		<description>And yet in other places, the unions just roll over while good teachers are bulldozed and bullied by state governments eager to boost test scores at the cost of - well, everything else. 

I have a rather unique perspective on education reform, having been the victim as a high school student of reform done very poorly. (I&#039;d link you to a really great article about it, but it&#039;s unfortunately behind a paywall.) I&#039;m not saying the reforms weren&#039;t necessesary - obviously most students were failing - but I think most of the blame was heaped by all on the older teachers and not of the district that had neglected us for decades. I remain convinced our principal should have been fired, and several of the teachers whose contracts were cancelled, kept.

Ridiculous as the idea is, part of me would love to see the students vote on who gets the bonuses. I suspect that would be more fair and provide a better assessment of who is actually deserving of them than either the union or the district.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet in other places, the unions just roll over while good teachers are bulldozed and bullied by state governments eager to boost test scores at the cost of &#8211; well, everything else. </p>
<p>I have a rather unique perspective on education reform, having been the victim as a high school student of reform done very poorly. (I&#8217;d link you to a really great article about it, but it&#8217;s unfortunately behind a paywall.) I&#8217;m not saying the reforms weren&#8217;t necessesary &#8211; obviously most students were failing &#8211; but I think most of the blame was heaped by all on the older teachers and not of the district that had neglected us for decades. I remain convinced our principal should have been fired, and several of the teachers whose contracts were cancelled, kept.</p>
<p>Ridiculous as the idea is, part of me would love to see the students vote on who gets the bonuses. I suspect that would be more fair and provide a better assessment of who is actually deserving of them than either the union or the district.</p>
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