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	<title>Comments on: Downward Class mobility, &#8216;going white,&#8217; and the downside of Section 8</title>
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	<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/</link>
	<description>Death, life and the anatomy of the changing heartland</description>
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		<title>By: lann</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/comment-page-1/#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>lann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 04:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/?p=2989#comment-495</guid>
		<description>&quot;Poverty&quot; equals &quot;hopelessness.&quot;  That&#039;s life&#039;s pre-ordained path that these inhabitants of  Section 8 housing follow.  So, in general, you can take the kid out of the ghetto but unless you change his or her point of view, pump up his or her self-esteem and actually give him or her a leg up, in most cases he or she will flounder about until he or she loses heart.  This really is not unique to a particular race.  It is the plight of any group who learn from messages both overt and subliminal that they are lesser than, not beautiful, not intelligent, just not in with the in crowd.  He or she will revert to the known, safe, familiar, poverty borne out of poor self-esteem, lack of positive role models, lack of the skills needed to  prevail, especially, in our current rabid corporatist model.  Lack of hope, lack of meaningful ways to form a new way of life, a new belief system lead to a return to old habits and more familiar territory.  In general, blacks and whites and other minorities want the same things, good schools, safe neighborhoods, good health care, places to congregate and exchange ideas and promote business.  Why is it that, to this day, we still cannot do this together?  We can tear down the ghettos and rebuild modern housing but, if it is still silently and openly a separate place, not included in the mainstream, it is doomed to end up going the way of the project that it supplanted.  We simply cannot fake racial equality and acceptance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Poverty&#8221; equals &#8220;hopelessness.&#8221;  That&#8217;s life&#8217;s pre-ordained path that these inhabitants of  Section 8 housing follow.  So, in general, you can take the kid out of the ghetto but unless you change his or her point of view, pump up his or her self-esteem and actually give him or her a leg up, in most cases he or she will flounder about until he or she loses heart.  This really is not unique to a particular race.  It is the plight of any group who learn from messages both overt and subliminal that they are lesser than, not beautiful, not intelligent, just not in with the in crowd.  He or she will revert to the known, safe, familiar, poverty borne out of poor self-esteem, lack of positive role models, lack of the skills needed to  prevail, especially, in our current rabid corporatist model.  Lack of hope, lack of meaningful ways to form a new way of life, a new belief system lead to a return to old habits and more familiar territory.  In general, blacks and whites and other minorities want the same things, good schools, safe neighborhoods, good health care, places to congregate and exchange ideas and promote business.  Why is it that, to this day, we still cannot do this together?  We can tear down the ghettos and rebuild modern housing but, if it is still silently and openly a separate place, not included in the mainstream, it is doomed to end up going the way of the project that it supplanted.  We simply cannot fake racial equality and acceptance.</p>
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		<title>By: Caitlin Kelly</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/comment-page-1/#comment-474</link>
		<dc:creator>Caitlin Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/?p=2989#comment-474</guid>
		<description>I read &quot;Savage Inequalities&quot; right after I moved to the U.S. permanently in June 1988 and it taught me a great deal, living then in the town-gown weirdness of Hanover,NH, home to wealthy Dartmouth kids in Porsches while other people there lived down dirt roads in trailers. People assume cities are filled with poor people, but so are many rural areas, obviously, and you can only really see it if you live there too.

I put off reading &quot;Random Family&quot; for a long time, assuming it was overpraised. It is an astonishing piece of work. You just veer between awe at what she did and despair of ever doing anything as good yourself. People rave about Ehrenreich-on-poverty but I&#039;m not wild about her work. And Jane Jacobs, for sure. I found it interesting she moved to my hometown, Toronto, which has been cited as a city that works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read &#8220;Savage Inequalities&#8221; right after I moved to the U.S. permanently in June 1988 and it taught me a great deal, living then in the town-gown weirdness of Hanover,NH, home to wealthy Dartmouth kids in Porsches while other people there lived down dirt roads in trailers. People assume cities are filled with poor people, but so are many rural areas, obviously, and you can only really see it if you live there too.</p>
<p>I put off reading &#8220;Random Family&#8221; for a long time, assuming it was overpraised. It is an astonishing piece of work. You just veer between awe at what she did and despair of ever doing anything as good yourself. People rave about Ehrenreich-on-poverty but I&#8217;m not wild about her work. And Jane Jacobs, for sure. I found it interesting she moved to my hometown, Toronto, which has been cited as a city that works.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin Considine</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/comment-page-1/#comment-473</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin Considine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/?p=2989#comment-473</guid>
		<description>Caitlin, 

Of the three authors you mention, I&#039;m only familiar on an I&#039;ve-actually-read-it level with Kozol, but I&#039;m a big fan. In fact, I just cited an article he wrote for Harper&#039;s about modern-day school segregation in a post I made last week. 

In my perfect world, I would add Jane Jacobs to that list. Even though she&#039;s not writing about race or education specifically, I always find her work provides a great framework for understanding those &quot;systems&quot; you mention -- at least in urban environments. 

Thanks for the comment, and for adding a few more names to my reading list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caitlin, </p>
<p>Of the three authors you mention, I&#8217;m only familiar on an I&#8217;ve-actually-read-it level with Kozol, but I&#8217;m a big fan. In fact, I just cited an article he wrote for Harper&#8217;s about modern-day school segregation in a post I made last week. </p>
<p>In my perfect world, I would add Jane Jacobs to that list. Even though she&#8217;s not writing about race or education specifically, I always find her work provides a great framework for understanding those &#8220;systems&#8221; you mention &#8212; at least in urban environments. </p>
<p>Thanks for the comment, and for adding a few more names to my reading list.</p>
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		<title>By: Caitlin Kelly</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/comment-page-1/#comment-472</link>
		<dc:creator>Caitlin Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/?p=2989#comment-472</guid>
		<description>Alex Kotlowitz, Jonathan Kozol and Adrian Nicole LeBlanc have described this eloquently in their books. If were queen, all three of these would be required reading in every classroom in the U.S., preferably in high school, no later. It would also be a requirement for every elected official at every level. Systems don&#039;t change much or very quickly. People live within systems, whatever the mythology of individualism that persists, whether it&#039;s their family, project, neighborhood or Ivy grad school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex Kotlowitz, Jonathan Kozol and Adrian Nicole LeBlanc have described this eloquently in their books. If were queen, all three of these would be required reading in every classroom in the U.S., preferably in high school, no later. It would also be a requirement for every elected official at every level. Systems don&#8217;t change much or very quickly. People live within systems, whatever the mythology of individualism that persists, whether it&#8217;s their family, project, neighborhood or Ivy grad school.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin Considine</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/comment-page-1/#comment-471</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin Considine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/?p=2989#comment-471</guid>
		<description>Andy, 

As a guy who can&#039;t pay his bills despite living rent-free in a spare studio cabin owned by his uncle, I&#039;m pretty sure that makes me poor, too. The sun burn I got at the Brickyard 400 NASCAR race confirms that I&#039;m also white. So, as a poor white guy myself, I would certainly never assert that poor equates with black and affluent with white on a one-to-one basis. 

What I wrote was that &quot;too often we can simply equate black with poor and affluent with white.&quot; For the sake of argument, this is true, and the facts do my job for me. In 2006, only 8.2% of non-Hispanic whites lived in poverty, according to US Census estimates (see here: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html); meanwhile, a quarter of blacks lived in poverty -- that&#039;s three times as many. Even among middle-class blacks, as the Pew study above indicates, a full 2/3 live in neighborhoods with high concentrations of poverty -- a phenomenon which, as shown above, often pulls middle-class blacks right back into poverty. Go back and read the citation. This isn&#039;t the case with most middle-class white families. 

That&#039;s not to say there aren&#039;t wealthy black kids or poor white kids. It&#039;s simply to state a fact: that the poverty rate is racially disproportional. I&#039;ll go so far as as to state that perhaps I should have qualified my statement in somewhat looser terms. But that&#039;s as far as I&#039;ll go.   

As for a conspiracy to &quot;keep the black man down,&quot; those are your words, not mine. I&#039;m not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for so many people, but I&#039;ll try. Racism used to be institutionalized -- enshrined by law, in fact -- and it was that way for hundreds of years, from slavery through Jim Crow. That created a situation in which most blacks in America were poor. 

You stated that &quot;it&#039;s wealthy and connected vs. poor and addicted. Period.&quot; Fine, lets assume institutional racism is completely dead and there aren&#039;t, say, major differences in how crack (more prevalent among minorities) and powder cocaine (more prevalent among whites) are prosecuted. Let&#039;s assume racial profiling doesn&#039;t exist. 

Let&#039;s assume you&#039;re right, because, ok, mostly you are.  

It&#039;s the history of institutionalized racism that continues to do most of the discrimination work for us. Whether you&#039;re black or white, if your parents were poor, chances are you&#039;ll wind up poor, too (unless, as shown in the study above, you start off middle-class and end up poor -- a mostly black phenomenon). The story of class mobility in America is mostly an illusion, interrupted by the odd exception like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama that proves the rule. So here&#039;s the bottom line: If blacks started off disproportionately poor because of institutionalized racism, they&#039;ll stay disproportionately poor because of the kinds of things you mention: low-quality education, violence, broken homes, and lack of connections and access to quality health care, etc., etc. 

Until we see something closer to parity in the poverty rate between whites and minorities, it will still be useful to at least remember these facts and examine things in these terms. The fact is that, comparatively speaking, blacks in America more often face a dearth of opportunity than whites do. It&#039;s just a fact. This disparity, this  construct, is not true across the board. But it&#039;s true enough of the time that it&#039;s irresponsible to pretend it no longer exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy, </p>
<p>As a guy who can&#8217;t pay his bills despite living rent-free in a spare studio cabin owned by his uncle, I&#8217;m pretty sure that makes me poor, too. The sun burn I got at the Brickyard 400 NASCAR race confirms that I&#8217;m also white. So, as a poor white guy myself, I would certainly never assert that poor equates with black and affluent with white on a one-to-one basis. </p>
<p>What I wrote was that &#8220;too often we can simply equate black with poor and affluent with white.&#8221; For the sake of argument, this is true, and the facts do my job for me. In 2006, only 8.2% of non-Hispanic whites lived in poverty, according to US Census estimates (see here: <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html)" rel="nofollow">http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html)</a>; meanwhile, a quarter of blacks lived in poverty &#8212; that&#8217;s three times as many. Even among middle-class blacks, as the Pew study above indicates, a full 2/3 live in neighborhoods with high concentrations of poverty &#8212; a phenomenon which, as shown above, often pulls middle-class blacks right back into poverty. Go back and read the citation. This isn&#8217;t the case with most middle-class white families. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to say there aren&#8217;t wealthy black kids or poor white kids. It&#8217;s simply to state a fact: that the poverty rate is racially disproportional. I&#8217;ll go so far as as to state that perhaps I should have qualified my statement in somewhat looser terms. But that&#8217;s as far as I&#8217;ll go.   </p>
<p>As for a conspiracy to &#8220;keep the black man down,&#8221; those are your words, not mine. I&#8217;m not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for so many people, but I&#8217;ll try. Racism used to be institutionalized &#8212; enshrined by law, in fact &#8212; and it was that way for hundreds of years, from slavery through Jim Crow. That created a situation in which most blacks in America were poor. </p>
<p>You stated that &#8220;it&#8217;s wealthy and connected vs. poor and addicted. Period.&#8221; Fine, lets assume institutional racism is completely dead and there aren&#8217;t, say, major differences in how crack (more prevalent among minorities) and powder cocaine (more prevalent among whites) are prosecuted. Let&#8217;s assume racial profiling doesn&#8217;t exist. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s assume you&#8217;re right, because, ok, mostly you are.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the history of institutionalized racism that continues to do most of the discrimination work for us. Whether you&#8217;re black or white, if your parents were poor, chances are you&#8217;ll wind up poor, too (unless, as shown in the study above, you start off middle-class and end up poor &#8212; a mostly black phenomenon). The story of class mobility in America is mostly an illusion, interrupted by the odd exception like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama that proves the rule. So here&#8217;s the bottom line: If blacks started off disproportionately poor because of institutionalized racism, they&#8217;ll stay disproportionately poor because of the kinds of things you mention: low-quality education, violence, broken homes, and lack of connections and access to quality health care, etc., etc. </p>
<p>Until we see something closer to parity in the poverty rate between whites and minorities, it will still be useful to at least remember these facts and examine things in these terms. The fact is that, comparatively speaking, blacks in America more often face a dearth of opportunity than whites do. It&#8217;s just a fact. This disparity, this  construct, is not true across the board. But it&#8217;s true enough of the time that it&#8217;s irresponsible to pretend it no longer exists.</p>
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		<title>By: andygeiger</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/comment-page-1/#comment-470</link>
		<dc:creator>andygeiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/?p=2989#comment-470</guid>
		<description>Sad i would expect this kind of racial profiling from an east coast snob, but as a fellow hoosier im a little disappointed.  equating white with affluent and black with poor?  having grown up in kokomo, IN, in section 8 housing, most of my neighbors were white, i beg to differ just a little bit, bub.  i will put my byrd in the face of any alleged intellectual that thinks our society perpetuates to &#039;keep the black man down&#039;.  Plenty of rich bastards keepin plenty of white people down too!  It&#039;s not white vs black.  its wealthy and connected vs poor and addicted.  period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sad i would expect this kind of racial profiling from an east coast snob, but as a fellow hoosier im a little disappointed.  equating white with affluent and black with poor?  having grown up in kokomo, IN, in section 8 housing, most of my neighbors were white, i beg to differ just a little bit, bub.  i will put my byrd in the face of any alleged intellectual that thinks our society perpetuates to &#8216;keep the black man down&#8217;.  Plenty of rich bastards keepin plenty of white people down too!  It&#8217;s not white vs black.  its wealthy and connected vs poor and addicted.  period.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian In NYC</title>
		<link>http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/2009/07/27/downward-class-mobility-going-white-and-the-downside-of-section-8/comment-page-1/#comment-469</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian In NYC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 02:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trueslant.com/austinconsidine/?p=2989#comment-469</guid>
		<description>&quot;While crime rates in large cities stayed flat, homicide rates in many midsize cities (with populations of between 500,000 and 1 million) began increasing, sometimes by as much as 20percent a year.&quot;

Not surprising when you consider that smaller cities tend to more or less one industry towns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;While crime rates in large cities stayed flat, homicide rates in many midsize cities (with populations of between 500,000 and 1 million) began increasing, sometimes by as much as 20percent a year.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not surprising when you consider that smaller cities tend to more or less one industry towns.</p>
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